A question for the Judo guys

Submitted by MostlyGenius on Fri, 07/04/2008 - 23:32

So in the unarmed combatives system that I am currently practicing/teaching there is a shortage of throws and takedowns. I feel that this is something that the system should be addressed because quickly and efficiently dropping people has some significant tactical advantages in some situations. My question is that given a seminar format program, rather than a dedicated school, what throwing techniques would you include into the system?

Because of the format of the training course we must recognize that we cannot depend upon strength, speed, timing, or finesse. Additionally we need something that is semi-safe to practice when the participants are not particularly good or familiar with (Ukemi) Break Falls.

The (Kazushi) breaking of the opponents balance needs to be the rear or rear obliques, and cannot include any (Sutemi) Sacrafice throws as primary technique, in fact I am biased against most the sweeps, reaps, and hooks because of the compromise of balance.

My current thinking is that the first technique that meets my criteria is the Scooping Throw (Suki-Nage) with a fallback technique of the Valley Drop (Tani-Otoshi).

WordsTwice - I am looking at you.

Comments

"...what throwing techniques would you include into the system?"
Mon, 07/07/2008 - 21:06 — Anonymous

MG, I'm happy to help, but your criteria make this a very difficult question.

  • "...a seminar format program, rather than a dedicated school..."
  • “...we cannot depend upon strength, speed, timing, or finesse.”
  • “...safe to practice when the participants are not particularly good or familiar with (Ukemi)...”
  • “...cannot include any (Sutemi)...as primary technique...”
  • "...biased against most the sweeps, reaps, and hooks..."


All throwing techniques are dependent on strength, speed, timing, or finesse to varying degrees. If you don't have finesse, then you can try to power through with brute force, but either way, it's impossible to get around that (and I don't use the word impossible very often).

With all due respect, teaching throws without teaching falling techniques first is dangerous. Teaching throws in general is not really feasible under the time constraints you have given (when you say seminar, I am thinking in terms of several hours of actual training at most).

However, given the limitations you set forth, I agree with you on sukui nage. That is one of my favorites and would definitely be included. It is effective and can be taught as a counterthrow, also. Maybe morote gari and kuchiki taoshi but those often end up going straight to the ground and have to be executed with speed or you end up eating a knee in the face.

I can’t see how you could really practice this without a reasonable level of skill in falling techniques. Practicing throws without knowing how to fall properly has a high probability of causing injuries. This is somewhat analogous to saying "I want to learn how to fly but I am not too interested in learning how to land", which should raise eyebrows in any context. Hell, even with good ukemi people get injured sometimes.

Sutemi waza are not even worth considering without decent ukemi. How can you sacrifice yourself without knowing how to fall?

To me, ukemi waza is an essential martial arts skill that goes beyond throwing techniques. After all, you can be knocked down by blows or through sheer clumsiness. The girl with the rifle in my YouTube video saved herself from a nasty fall last year and she attributed that to her consistent breakfall training.

I hope you have some thick crash pads and good insurance.

Sorry I couldn’t be more helpful. If I think of anything else I will let you know.

WT

I agree that all throws
Tue, 07/08/2008 - 21:37 — MostlyGenius

I agree that all throws require some combination of speed, timing, power, and technique. I was trying to stay away from Kataguruma, Saotoshi, Kanebasami etc. When Tori blows one of the results are often non-recoverable in anything other than a Judo contest.

One can certainly teach throwing without teaching Ukemi, you just have to set it up so that the students don't throw each other. Given enough instructors who did know how to fall I don't see this as being a huge obstacle. Truthfully, I do teach an abbreviated Ukemi but the goal would not be to have the students pile driving each other.

Currently we do not teach a takedown because of the time constraints, but I feel that this is a shortfall in the system. I am not sure at what level I would introduce it.

We are on the same frequency.
Wed, 07/09/2008 - 19:08 — Anonymous

I was trying to stay away from Kataguruma, Saotoshi, Kanebasami etc. When Tori blows one of the results are often non-recoverable in anything other than a Judo contest.

Understood. Maybe obi otoshi? It’s stupid simple.

...you just have to set it up so that the students don't throw each other.

So, uchikomi only?

Currently we do not teach a takedown because of the time constraints, but I feel that this is a shortfall in the system. I am not sure at what level I would introduce it.

It’s hard to make an intelligent comment without knowing what else was already in the syllabus. For example, is there any ground fighting in the program? Novices doing throws often end up in katamewaza whether they like it or not.

If they don’t have to go to the ground, it might be better to avoid the issue and teach a good sprawl, instead. Practice how to avoid being thrown or dragged to the ground. Just thinking out loud.

WT

Answers:
Sat, 07/12/2008 - 17:52 — MostlyGenius

I mean have the students throw the instructors. Given enough instructors (or advanced students) that shouldn't be a problem. It's not the best solution but it could fit in the time constraints.

There is ground fighting, but it isn't wrestling/grappeling. Basically we ground fight until we can stand back up.